Quitting Low in Tournaments (Split Topic)

[snow]

Where are the other 3 shit heads at? At least Lance is taking it on the chin like a man.

[goober]

Where are the other 3 shit heads at? At least Lance is taking it on the chin like a man.

I'm 70% sure B00GY is tugg.

[The_Revelation]

987, so nice to see you are fire in the tournament section! I want to see some of that fire in some tournaments bro!! Get back doe quitter ;). I am going to reply to your post in the latter half of this post.


Advantage Vs. Disadvantage concerning quitting low
I didn't touch this subject in my above post, evidently its the hotter topic.

First and foremost, Kirby is an animal with numbers. With that being said, the disadvantage incurred by those present for a Qlow is just a variable in the game, much like...

- Repetitive long moving which results in less moves therefore less PPH for those present. Advantage to those who were not present.
- A large range in PINGS. Some players have an advantage by having faster connections, therefore an advantage over slower players which affects all faucets of the game.
- Players who find boxes with extra radars early on in the tournament have an advantage over those who do not get so lucky.

Just like all the things above, quitting low does not benefit one person over another when you average out those who are affected over 10 tournaments. There needs to be chance and variables in tournaments. Sometimes we will be on the advantage with these variables, sometimes we will be in the disadvantage. n Before you accuse me of being pro Qlow, see my previous post.


Reply to the infamous 987

I think your bitterness veered its head in your above post - and while I personally agree with your points, I do not think any community could live up to those expectations on their own.

At the end of the day, rules are rules and if a person can play a certain way without breaking them - no ban required. But you may not gain a communities respect, which is only going to matter to a certain % of players. A developer has to look at the community of players and make choices based on what they feel is needed. I remember back in early BF days, tournaments were a bloody mess with free kills - but there were so many people that it didn't matter as much.

Now we have evolved as a community (+ shrunk) and we demand better standards but the official "rules" have changed very little.


You have chose the latter, and in my opinion - its a developers job to address issues like this.

[-Kirby-]

quitting low does not benefit one person over another when you average out those who are affected over 10 tournaments.

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

For another example, some players may simply be better at positioning themselves in the right place at the right time; they max-out on the number of killscreens they participate in from tournament to tournament (doing so requires a relatively heightened map awareness of course). These players may also end up more disadvantaged by low-quitting than players that aren't as good at positioning, again because they're having more of their earned advantages removed

In both cases - even (maybe especially) over a number of tournaments - killchasers and expert-positioners would then be having more advantage removed than others, thus benefiting those that don't participate in as many killscreens (likely again because less of their adversaries rank)

If there are different types of players out there - and I think there very well are - then low-quitting probably does not benefit/disbenefit every player the same amount

[PRIDE]

tourneys are boring

[The_Revelation]

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

I actually had a two paragraph response to this, but a realized that my point could be sumed up in a few sentences.

Its not PPH or Kill, its always a combination. We all need at least one kill. So we all need to be kill chasers/expert positioners at some point in the tournament. No one is winning at Lieutenant.


***Added to drive my point...

-Player A is a "Kill chaser" and spends 20 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 2 times, gets 1 kill.
...using the same scale,
-Player B is a "PPHer" and spends 10 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 1 time, gets .5 kill.

Player "A" will still get more kills on average. My point is that the Qlow screens go hand in hand with the kill screens.

[-LanceheaD-]

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

I actually had a two paragraph response to this, but a realized that my point could be sumed up in a few sentences.

Its not PPH or Kill, its always a combination. We all need at least one kill. So we all need to be kill chasers/expert positioners at some point in the tournament. No one is winning at Lieutenant.


***Added to drive my point...

-Player A is a "Kill chaser" and spends 20 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 2 times, gets 1 kill.
...using the same scale,
-Player B is a "PPHer" and spends 10 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 1 time, gets .5 kill.

Player "A" will still get more kills on average. My point is that the Qlow screens go hand in hand with the kill screens.

Well put, as well as your previous post. This was sort of what I was trying to get at, but could not put into words. Being quit low on is just another aspect of tournaments. Averaged over many tournaments, it kind of evens out the disadvantage towards tournament participants. If it's a disadvantage to everyone more or less (we know that being low quit on affects everyone, it does not target specific individuals...esp in mobs), then I think it is still fair (and therefore, not cheating). I'm not saying it's not wrong, i just can't call it cheating.

[goober]

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

I actually had a two paragraph response to this, but a realized that my point could be sumed up in a few sentences.

Its not PPH or Kill, its always a combination. We all need at least one kill. So we all need to be kill chasers/expert positioners at some point in the tournament. No one is winning at Lieutenant.


***Added to drive my point...

-Player A is a "Kill chaser" and spends 20 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 2 times, gets 1 kill.
...using the same scale,
-Player B is a "PPHer" and spends 10 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 1 time, gets .5 kill.

Player "A" will still get more kills on average. My point is that the Qlow screens go hand in hand with the kill screens.

Well put, as well as your previous post. This was sort of what I was trying to get at, but could not put into words. Being quit low on is just another aspect of tournaments. Averaged over many tournaments, it kind of evens out the disadvantage towards tournament participants. If it's a disadvantage to everyone more or less (we know that being low quit on affects everyone, it does not target specific individuals...esp in mobs), then I think it is still fair (and therefore, not cheating). I'm not saying it's not wrong, i just can't call it cheating.

I still can't believe that you are justifying your own quitting low. You are a beast at tournaments there was a span of like 10 tourneys where you cupped. This tournament you essentially went balls to the wall on a suicide mission to get a kill. In the process making you a target. If you had gotten the kill, you would've quit low (Because you did it without getting the kill) and you would've cupped. Seriously this game has little to no honor anymore if experienced player can justify their own quitting low. You are just paving the way for other people to make tourney tanks, not tell anyone, and quit low if they find themselves where they are screwed. You don't deserve any of those cups, because you probably got kills from honorable people that didn't quit low.

[eldawg51]

As long a I'm around, I will always try to instill honor into the game and its players, literally and figuratively, cause I eat my vegetables.

[-LanceheaD-]

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

I actually had a two paragraph response to this, but a realized that my point could be sumed up in a few sentences.

Its not PPH or Kill, its always a combination. We all need at least one kill. So we all need to be kill chasers/expert positioners at some point in the tournament. No one is winning at Lieutenant.


***Added to drive my point...

-Player A is a "Kill chaser" and spends 20 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 2 times, gets 1 kill.
...using the same scale,
-Player B is a "PPHer" and spends 10 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 1 time, gets .5 kill.

Player "A" will still get more kills on average. My point is that the Qlow screens go hand in hand with the kill screens.

Well put, as well as your previous post. This was sort of what I was trying to get at, but could not put into words. Being quit low on is just another aspect of tournaments. Averaged over many tournaments, it kind of evens out the disadvantage towards tournament participants. If it's a disadvantage to everyone more or less (we know that being low quit on affects everyone, it does not target specific individuals...esp in mobs), then I think it is still fair (and therefore, not cheating). I'm not saying it's not wrong, i just can't call it cheating.

I still can't believe that you are justifying your own quitting low. You are a beast at tournaments there was a span of like 10 tourneys where you cupped. This tournament you essentially went balls to the wall on a suicide mission to get a kill. In the process making you a target. If you had gotten the kill, you would've quit low (Because you did it without getting the kill) and you would've cupped. Seriously this game has little to no honor anymore if experienced player can justify their own quitting low. You are just paving the way for other people to make tourney tanks, not tell anyone, and quit low if they find themselves where they are screwed. You don't deserve any of those cups, because you probably got kills from honorable people that didn't quit low.

Goob, its great that you can jump to conclusions so fast. Im not on a popularity show to get the most people to believe I play in some honorable way. I play honorably because I want to play in a way that is fair and could be the most fun for everyone, in what is a common sensical way to myself and most people. I'd like to play a game with a sense of community because obviously, I wouldn't play this game if no one else played.

Ive already said 3 things:
1. I'm sorry for what I did, won't happen again.
2. I said quitting low is wrong behavior. (it's not right, but it's not cheating... just like long moving is not right when ur getting raided and long moving people in tournies yet its not cheating)
3. I explained why I quit low and how I view it in tournaments.

Since when did I not have the right to my own opinion on quitting low in tournaments? If you can't handle me trying to explain my view on quitting low in tournaments after points 1 and 2 above, then you can seriously gtfo this thread.


Yea... i did get kills from people that didn't quit low, hence I cupped. Let me just point out something. How many times have I NOT quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 79 How many times have I quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 1 In response, I have admitted to doing it and have mentioned points 1 and 2 above. Improving behavior in the game is a 2 way road. One direction comes from the effort of the individual, the other comes from the community who accepts, forgives, allows room for improvement, and moves on.

As long a I'm around, I will always try to instill honor into the game and its players, literally and figuratively, cause I eat my vegetables.

Vegetables = honor? lol.

[theintern]

Where are the other 3 shit heads at? At least Lance is taking it on the chin like a man.

+1 to this. I think someone stepping up and admitting that they made a mistake goes a long way and makes for a better experience for everyone in the future.

[eldawg51]

As long a I'm around, I will always try to instill honor into the game and its players, literally and figuratively, cause I eat my vegetables.

Vegetables = honor? lol.

Is Tits seriously the only one who understands me?

Goober's sig. When I reply to his posts I mention eating vegetables. It's not as funny anymore.

[-Kirby-]

Ah but this is assumes that everyone plays the same way, does it not? Not everyone plays the same way. For example, some players lean heavily towards (or away from) killchasing - I think it may be probable that killchasers are more heavily disadvantaged by low-quitting than pphers if they are indeed low-quit-on more often over a number of tournaments. Or perhaps it is better to say they have more of their earned-advantage *removed* than pphers.

I actually had a two paragraph response to this, but a realized that my point could be sumed up in a few sentences.

Its not PPH or Kill, its always a combination. We all need at least one kill. So we all need to be kill chasers/expert positioners at some point in the tournament. No one is winning at Lieutenant.


***Added to drive my point...

-Player A is a "Kill chaser" and spends 20 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 2 times, gets 1 kill.
...using the same scale,
-Player B is a "PPHer" and spends 10 mins chasing, gets qlowed on 1 time, gets .5 kill.

Player "A" will still get more kills on average. My point is that the Qlow screens go hand in hand with the kill screens.

In your example player A is still getting more of their earned-advantage removed though

Assuming we are to ignore the number of tanks on each killscreen (such as in your example), player 'A' is still getting low-quit-on twice as many times per tournament as player 'B'. It doesn't matter who comes out on top. What matters is that one player is having more of their earned-advantage removed than the other. Player 'B's earned-advantage - the points he earned in the 10 minutes he didn't spend chasing - is not being removed by somebody else. Player 'A's earned-advantage - the higher number of killscreens he participates in - is being removed by the players quitting low on him

It doesn't matter that player 'A' would still get more kills on average, all that matters is that the players' advantages are not affected equally by players that quit low

[muff cabbage]

How many times have I NOT quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 79 How many times have I quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 1

You've died 79 times in tp2 tournaments? That seems a little steep.

[The_Revelation]

In your example player A is still getting more of their earned-advantage removed though

Assuming we are to ignore the number of tanks on each killscreen (such as in your example), player 'A' is still getting low-quit-on twice as many times per tournament as player 'B'. It doesn't matter who comes out on top. What matters is that one player is having more of their earned-advantage removed than the other. Player 'B's earned-advantage - the points he earned in the 10 minutes he didn't spend chasing - is not being removed by somebody else. Player 'A's earned-advantage - the higher number of killscreens he participates in - is being removed by the players quitting low on him

It doesn't matter that player 'A' would still get more kills on average, all that matters is that the players' advantages are not affected equally by players that quit low

They BOTH need kills, and they both have to work against the same Qlow disadvantage. You have to account for the fact that a PPH'er cannot win without kill(s). If he decides hes only going to spend 5 minutes searching for kills, then yes of course he will be quit low on less then the other - but he also will not likely be in any kill screens either.

Let me angle it a differant way. If we had no low quiting we would have a perfect 100% kill rate. Lets say low quiting reduces that perfect rate by 20%.

-Lets say a "Kill Chaser" is in 20 kill screens, they will accomplish a kill 16 times.
-Lets say a "PPH'er" is in 10 kill screens, they will accomplish a kill 8 times.
So While the first person was quit on twice as much, he was also in twice as many kill screens. So it affected the parties the same based on their play style. No advantage to either party.

The quiting low ratio isnt biased to PPH'ers or Kill Chasers - its across the board. So the same kill that a PPHer needs to make captain is affected just the same as the kill that the "Kill Chaser" needs to make captain.

[snow]

"The reputation of a thousand years may be determined by the conduct of one hour." One of my favorite quotes to go by. Thank you lance for stepping forward and admitting fault and explaining your reasoning at the time.

Aside from all that took place in that particular tourny, I'd like to say since the game started the only changed system is FK, which can still be tricked. This was achieved by community monitoring in tournaments and reporting. Because you can spoof IPS, change computers or buy new nic adapters you can't track or block by Mac address. So we can't keep shit heads out so what's left?

As stated previously a time delay could disallow quitting for a time. How about in tournies if you are being shot at you just can't quit? Forget a time delay unless you want it associated with homings. If the browser or anything is closed while being shot in a tourney your tank stays live until it is deactivated. That creates the so called "level" playing field.

Tournaments are competition of achieving rank and points in hopes to place in the top 3.

[-LanceheaD-]

How many times have I NOT quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 79 How many times have I quit low in TP2 tournaments? Answer: 1

You've died 79 times in tp2 tournaments? That seems a little steep.

I dont understand what your point is in this post. Is it to try to pick out some fault in my post as to slander my credibility?

Look at it again and consider the options of what that actually could mean before posting something like that again. It doesn't assume I died.

[muff cabbage]

Actually, I didn't understand what the point of your comparison was...

The term "quitting low" refers to the act leaving the game in order to avoid an imminent deactivation. Stating you did not quit low an x amount of times implies you stared in the face of deactivation and didn't reach for Q, like Leonidas against the Persians. Not sure what else "not quit low" might mean.

[goober]

There is too much to read and obviously people are set in their ways/have their own beliefs whatever. All I want to say to Lance is that doing one bad thing will trump the 100 good things that you have done. The reason why I keep pressing is because you don't consider quitting low in tournaments cheating. It is straight up cheating other people out of a rightful kill for getting you low/finding you low/ coming across your stupid self for getting yourself low.

I'm all about forgiveness and moving on, hell I've given bluntz and MZ more chances then their family members have inbred with each other. It is one thing to apologize for a a poorly thought out mistake, but when you do something wrong and try to give excuses, you are not helping your credibility, but in fact making this game worse. I understand the reasoning behind you quitting low, but if that was your mentality to begin with, then you should have never been in the tournament in the first place, because you are just as bad as trolls such as K-K, Snearboy, and other shmucks who just fuck with actual competitors.

[-Kirby-]

@rev

First off, my apologies for this massive wall of text. Moving on

Perhaps this is getting above my head, but I just don't think it's the percentage of earned-advantage that is unfairly removed that matters; I think it's the quantity. I think that when neither player should have any advantage unfairly removed, it doesn't matter that one fairly earned more advantage (killscreens) than the other in the first place - that it only matters that one had more advantage unfairly removed than the other. If every kill guarantees a rank, then the first player is having 4 of their ranks unfairly taken away, while the second is only having 2 ranks unfairly taken away.

If we eliminate the idea of pphers and killchasers completely - we just look at as a positioning contest - then those that are better at positioning lose out on more kills than those that aren't, and therefore more ranks.

I think the key is that a killscreen is something that is fairly earned, and therefore a chance at a kill is fairly earned. Whether a player earns ten killscreens or twenty killscreens doesn't matter, because they worked hard to earn them and they were earned fairly.

I'm going to acknowledge that you might be right though because I do feel as though I'm having a harder and harder time thinking about this whole thing. So I'm going to try a highly, highly simplified example - to see if I can make the prompt any easier, and to see what comes of it. I don't even know if it's going to demonstrate anything, but bear with me. Consider the following universe:

- The entire playerbase spends all its time playing one tournament of infinite length.
- The playerbase is of infinite size.
- Points don't exist.
- Rank doesn't exist.
- Each kill guarantees a cup; each player gets a cup for each and every kill they score. Everyone plays to accumulate cup after cup after cup, forever (and so the cups are all grey, idk).

I do believe these parameters simplify a lot of things that have been complicating this - multiple tournaments, alternate strategies, the amount of kills required to cup... none of that clutter exists anymore. A kill guarantees a cup, so everyone just wants kills - forever and always.

Let's also go ahead and keep the parameters set in our most recent example; 20% of victims quit low, and there's still a 100% kill rate (so I suppose that every kill happens 1v1 in this world; for the sake of simplicity, why not).

So now we've simplified everything there is to simplify about the tournament structure itself. This just leaves the existing playerbase to play in it.

So everyone enters the map, committed to playing this tournament for the rest of their lives. Everyone wants to gather as many cups as possible before they pass away in real life because that's how you get your name in the recordbooks, and being a Tankpit legend is important towards your family legacy. So everyone knows that to do well, they have to get as many kills as possible. Thus the only strategy left is killchasing. So everyone is employing the same strategy to accomplish the same end goal: be part of as many killscreens as possible. That way they can maximize the number of kills (cups) they get.


Naturally, some players in the community are really good at positioning - these experts manage to position themselves on 20 killscreens per day. Player 'A' is an expert positioner.

Some players, however, aren't as good at positioning - these novices manage to position themselves on just 10 killscreens per day. Player 'B' is a novice positioner.

So player 'A' and player 'B' compete for a year, and at the end of a year player 'A' should have 7300 cups. Player 'B' should half as many, of course: 3650.

But 20% of the time, the victim quit low - so after some quick math, player 'A' only ended up with 5840 cups, and player 'B' with 2920.

Due to low quitting being allowed, player 'A' lost 1460 cups - and will lose 20% of his legacy over the rest of his lifetime. Player 'B' lost 730 cups - and will also lose 20% of his lifetime legacy as the tournament carries on into the future.

But since player 'A' is twice as good at positioning compared to player 'B', he will lose 2x more cups than player 'B' over the course of his tournament career. The ratio of cups lost to low quitting is the same for both players, but player 'A' takes a much bigger hit in the recordbooks than player 'B'.

So even though the ratio of cups lost to low-quitters / cups won is the same for both players, player 'A' loses twice as many cups. 1 cup = 1 cup in this universe. It matters not that they lost out on the same number of cups relative to their own totals - it matters only that they lost X number of cups in the grand scheme of their existence.



But I think you might be right anyway because in real life we have a choice of strategy. At any rate I'm not sure it's important enough for us to keep going on about and that since we're both pro anti-qlow measures in the first place it's probably worth it for us to stop debating this topic and focus on improving the real-life product

[tournamentJESUS]

tourneys are boring

Generals think war should be waged like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. I have no use for knights.

[mark]

The bulletin board for the 14th of May gave me a chuckle.

******************************
Player of The Day!
******************************
-LanceheaD-
******************************
Color: Orange
Status: Elite
Overall beast level: [* * * * *] 5 star
-LanceheaD- took a huge raid from the purples and reds tonight. He took it like a pro and stayed in the map all night getting his beast on. He is also the best tournament player I have seen for awhile. When ever lance plays he plays to his 100% ability. Good stuff and congrats

- Posted by Battlefield-2

What really had me going was goob

One of the main skills the player -LanceheaD- has is extremely fast reflexes, and the hand eye coordination it takes to press the Q button when low in a tournament. May we all learn something from him. Practice and dedication can lead to such great outcomes. One day I hope to preserve my spot as #14 in a Deep Six tournament.

- Posted by goober

[The_Revelation]

@ Kirby
First off @ that hilarious analogy with family legacy playing Tankpit for eternity lolol

I think we both get each others point now. While I don't necessarily agree with you that it is a disadvantage to a better player - I do see your point. You think it would be fair if the Qlow structure was like our income tax structure, but in reverse terms. Those who make minimum wage at Arbys are taxed much less then those on wall street making millions...Basically you want to give millionaires tax breaks


Haha, that didn't fit quite perfect, but regardless I think we can agree to disagree on this matter.

[-LanceheaD-]

oops double posted.

[-LanceheaD-]

@Kirby/Rev

It sounds like you guys are understanding each other to a pretty good extent, and have varying opinions as to what is important... ratio or total quantity of affected "lost cups" due to being q-lowed on. But anyway, it was a good read for sure on both sides. Kirby you have a very interesting mind bro, haha got a kick out of your "scenario." This whole conversation just sounds like a large philosophical debate and I could see why people can have varying opinions. At any rate, thanks for explaining both your points because you two actually spend the necessary time to eloquently post your logic to this thread, which I lack the patience and probably, capability, to do so myself.

Actually, I didn't understand what the point of your comparison was...

The term "quitting low" refers to the act leaving the game in order to avoid an imminent deactivation. Stating you did not quit low an x amount of times implies you stared in the face of deactivation and didn't reach for Q, like Leonidas against the Persians. Not sure what else "not quit low" might mean.

I rofled at "like Leonidas against the persians"... (pictures Leonidas and his men mashing "q" before arrows hit them). Correct, but you obviously don't remember what you said. You did not say "stare in the face of deactivation." You said "died." It just means i've played 79 tournies and have had times (most likely) in each one where I was dead low but I got out of the situation. Doesn't mean I died. Still don't get why you posted that though.

You've died 79 times in tp2 tournaments? That seems a little steep.

There is too much to read and obviously people are set in their ways/have their own beliefs whatever. All I want to say to Lance is that doing one bad thing will trump the 100 good things that you have done. The reason why I keep pressing is because you don't consider quitting low in tournaments cheating. It is straight up cheating other people out of a rightful kill for getting you low/finding you low/ coming across your stupid self for getting yourself low.

I'm all about forgiveness and moving on, hell I've given bluntz and MZ more chances then their family members have inbred with each other. It is one thing to apologize for a a poorly thought out mistake, but when you do something wrong and try to give excuses, you are not helping your credibility, but in fact making this game worse. I understand the reasoning behind you quitting low, but if that was your mentality to begin with, then you should have never been in the tournament in the first place, because you are just as bad as trolls such as K-K, Snearboy, and other shmucks who just fuck with actual competitors.

Goob, just read everything everyone said above. You clearly said there is too much to read, so you haven't read. I don't think its cheating. You're obviously not forgiving and moving on like you claim to be... you can't get past it. I don't think its cheating. If you really think I am a troll as bad as those mentioned above, I will make you regret even mentioning that to me so don't even go there.

Like I already said, if there is a q-low delaying/eliminating mechanism in tournies, I would be all for it because that would make it even for everyone. If that's the end goal you want, I would agree with you and that would make the game better for everyone so we can all avoid this whole situation. As for quitting low in tournies, I think it affects everyone to a similar degree over the long run so it isn't cheating. I see it as another variable in the game. I'm not condoning my or any other people's quitting low in tournies, I just see it as another variable in the game. Just like it is in the main map. It happens, but I'll make sure I do my part and don't do it again.

This whole thing stemmed from the point that I don't think low quitters should be banned. There are a lot of unwritten rules and no-no's in this game that are looked down upon but isn't actually cheating. Cheating is supposed to affect and give an advantage to a directed individual. Things that are looked down upon (such as long moves, marathoning, moving like ashrak, annoying things, etc.) are not helpful to the game and are considered wrong and annoying. Such a playstyle is shunned but I don't think it requires a ban as "cheating" should. Cheating would be like giving a free kill in a tournament.

I may have had a view similar to yours a long time ago, but playing in this many tournaments and cupping many times has probably been a factor in thinking of quitting low in tournaments as another variable. Cause over the long run, it really is just that. What I did was wrong and a mistake, even with the mentality that I had at the time (which I explained). But honestly imo, I look at it as a variable in tournaments, something to be frowned upon, and not cheating (therefore low quitters should not be banned, but simply shunned and grown to realize that what they are doing is not right). All we can do is to not do it ourselves, and hopefully everyone will eventually follow.

I don't have to agree with your opinion because as far as I'm concerned, all that has to be done is an executive implementation from SW and we will get what we collectively want to avoid this mess. So for the last time, I don't think it's cheating.

People don't have to agree with everything to move onto a practical agreed upon outcome.

[goober]

I'm glad you got that all out of your system. I'm ready to move on, I feel lighter without all this respect I had for you. I will leave this topic with the many definitions of cheating for everyone to make their own definition:

to prevent (someone) from having something that he or she deserves or was expecting to get

avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill

finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation

to elude; deprive of something expected

synonyms:
avoid, escape, evade, elude; foil, frustrate, thwart

[-LanceheaD-]

Thanks.

DGAFFFFF

[PRIDE]

you guys are unforgiving as fuck. who cares if he quit low as long it was a one time offence and he doesnt do it again. quitting low isnt even on the top 5 list of worse things you can do in this game

[The_Revelation]

you guys are unforgiving as fuck. who cares if he quit low as long it was a one time offence and he doesnt do it again. quitting low isnt even on the top 5 list of worse things you can do in this game

hah - Goober was the one really grilling him. Summed up Goobers point though: If an elite player like -Lancehead- quits low (even once), then why shouldn't anyone else? Like anything else in life, its up to the "top guys" to set an example for everyone, this means that they will get a little more scrutiny then the average player

quitting low isnt even on the top 5 list of worse things you can do in this game.

In the main map, who cares. But in tournaments it can make a big impact. Your right though, its not the worst thing - but its still something that shouldn't be as evident by elite players in tournaments.