Tournament videoguides and raw tournament footage

[LastSingularity]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBsYT_a9U5g

Kirby - did you know that "Dosetsu Tachibana" was Sean987 beforehand?

I really enjoyed the way that you two PPH'ed by the river. You guys know just when the other guy will grab for fuel, so you stop shooting and you do your own refueling or radaring, so very few shots are wasted hitting the ground. No mess-ups, no mis-reading your PPH opponent, it's just all so smooth and natural, almost.

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LOL @ 27:30, when you got so low that your entire health bar is black. Sometimes after a Deep Six or Iceland tournament, I would have nightmares about getting that low on some fucked up small island in the middle of the map, unable to teleport off the island, and unable to even pick up an obstacle to reach that barrel of 1,000 fuel just one space in the water, and I just sit there and die. Worst nightmare in Tankpit. Thank god you're in Metropolis, where it's wet!

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Why do you sometimes tell bots of your own color to "plant mines?" Is that because this forces them to stay still, not drive across the whole screen and lag you up?

[-Kirby-]

Based on the name I probably knew it was him, yes. The Samurai theme was likely getting some good usage at the time from certain AoW members. Nobody knew who I was though.

Not that it matters but I just looked at one of the scenes between us and some of the moves he made seemed so fast, even for me. In the sequence from 19:20 to 22:00, there appear to be a few instances of him getting 1.5-2 moves while I have one in queue; 19:36 and 20:24, maybe. But yeah definitely some good cohesion there, although in my later days I tried to stay away from anyone I knew as much as possible in tournaments - I kind of don't think it's right that two players can use their relationship and prior experience together as an advantage to leverage their pph, it's a problem if even one of the two players is in the know, really. Like I was probably able to do better fighting him if I had a sense of his tendencies before hand. I'm interested in proposals that would help anonymize identities in tournaments.

Certainly try to predict what the players around you are going to do, though; and being deliberate can definitely help in 1v1s, because it can help if your opponent can predict your moves, too.

And I actually have no great reason for telling bots to plant mines. It's probably more trouble than it's worth. There's a part of me that does it for fun, and there's a part of me that does it because I imagine that it might make things ever-so-slightly more difficult for someone of an opposing color somewhere at some point. Interestingly enough, in this particular tournament it appears possible that it helped me wonderfully at 53:00; but I highly suspect that it was a waste of my time to be doing that at all.

[The_Revelation]

I kind of don't think it's right that two players can use their relationship and prior experience together as an advantage to leverage their pph, it's a problem if even one of the two players is in the know, really. Like I was probably able to do better fighting him if I had a sense of his tendencies before hand. I'm interested in proposals that would help anonymize identities in tournaments.

I disagree that knowing how someone plays the game and using that to your own advantage shouldn't be allowed. I think I would call this experience, and its the advantage to the players who are more experienced. As long as both players are being competitive and have goals of winning, I cannot take issue with it. The only reason I think I would ever be a fan of having anonymity would be to discourage FKs. I love discussing with you Kirby, we can disagree and still not hate each other afterwords lol.

[LastSingularity]

Where do you draw the line in terms of "collaboration", though?

Obviously, it's a form of cheating if a player rounds up 2-3 of his best buddies on TankPit, and requests them to take turns PPH'ing specifically with him, so that those 2-3 players have only one sole purpose: getting the main guy quality one-on-one PPH and they won't attempt to cup themselves. That's blatant cheating.

But saying that you know your friend might give himself a Japanese tank name, and then you see a Japanese named tank fight really well and similar to his style during the tourney, and then you say, "Okay this guy knows how to session well, I think I will stick with him for a bit, maybe 10 min or so." Is that really an unethical thing to do? Aren't you supposed to find people who have the same idea as you (PPH efficiently) and try to stick with them for as long as you can? You're not planning this ahead of time on AIM or something; you just happen to run into him in the same tourney, right? (I don't know, Kirby...)

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The other thing that I notice about TP tournaments in 2013-2014 vs. BF tournaments from the early 2000's is that a lot more people actually tried to cup their main tank back in Battlefield / bonus.com days

You look at the awards for the top 25 back then in 2002, and maybe 20 out of 25 will have triple star, golden tank, some combat / honor award, and maybe a sword or two. And if a guy gets bronze for his 10th try, he will use the same tank again, and shoot for gold, on his 11th, 12th, and 13th tries.

Nowadays, if you look at the most recent TP tournaments, out of the top 25, perhaps only 5 or so will be a "main tank." Most cup winners are tanks with no previous awards, and if they have a single star, it's because they earned it during the tournament by ranking major. In fact, a lot of times, I think I am the only player in the top 5-10 with a triple star + bronze/silver tank, etc.

I had a lot of issues in the beginning when I started trying to cup my main tank, because I died 3-4 times in my first few tries, and people started to recognize my name as an easy target, and I'd get raided by three diff colors in future tournament sessions. I'd try to just PPH one-on-one, but then 3+ people would join in, and all turn against me at once. Even if I survived the raid, I would have lost at least 40 shields, and the raiders lost valuable PPH time and lost many homing shots - it's a lose-lose situation for both sides. So I was forced to create anonymous tanks, not for fun, but perhaps out of necessity, just so people didn't know who I was, and they would stop raiding me, so that I could PPH into the top 10

I just wish we could go back to days when people actually cupped their main tank, or at least a tank they would use more than once.

(Then again, I guess if you win 20+ cups, what else would you do? You can't re-cup your main tank gold 10 times, right? You'd have to create new tanks...)

[weekend_nachos]

Couple good points in some past couple posts, I'll elaborate on my thoughts.

I play anonymous tanks so I can play with a clean slate. No one knows who I am in most cases which causes people to interact differently. I make it a point to not tell anyone who I'm playing as. I want the challenge to be as real as possible. Sometimes my names are relatively easy to guess, most times you wont know till its over, and sometimes I don't even like to claim what tank I played so I can play it again at some point later on with a higher percentage of anonymity.

If I play my main tanks people will treat my tank a lot differently. Depending on whether or not they like me, people might come to me, people might just call on me nonstop. I feel dirty if people know who I am and use that to their advantage.

When I play a team theme, I expect it will be assumed its me or another AOW member. sometimes ill say ill be playing it, most times no. Kirby Sean and I used to do trios pretty often but made it a point to not shoot each other in map, we do this for any team themes. Unfortunately other players don't share this same sentiment, seeing how many times i've seen players love claiming top pph as they sit there shooting their same teammate most of the tournament, especially when its the same theme and names that callout to themselves. Which actually makes the victory for me 10x as strong seeing as I go out of my way to fight to the top in the dark whereas they sit there with each other in a circle jerk. So when you're getting passed by people who don't have partners, that's pretty pathetic.

Overall it's just unfair and sad that the desperation for a cup overrides fair respectable play. But the circle jerk mentality is always strong so people just go hop on a ferry in iceland with their teammates, or dive to corners of maps unseen by most players and pph there. Instead of doing what everyone else does and find points with players naturally. I think in bf this all probably happened a hell of a lot more. But due to the player base then and now it was more than likely unseen back then or talked about. Now its so small its kind of fuckin gay to do it.

I'd be down for tanks that say anonymous the whole tournament and then the final results yield the true winners. Would make finding kills a whole other level. But then again it might make shit hard to detect who's being a piece of shit, and I'm willing to bet there would still be some in chat coordinating regardless.

[iwasperdition]

Anonymous tanks would be so awesome. LB this man.

[-LanceheaD-]

It's not even fun if you sit there and pph with someone you know all tourney long. Where's the challenge? That's like if I'm trying to beat bf-2's pph to shiny. It just sucks. That being said, I do fight with players that I notice have "skill" or certain styles in tournies. I know this by observing how they are playing in the tournament or perhaps may have a slight hint based on their name. But I don't think I would ever plan to pph with someone all tourney long. That's honestly not even that great, I just fight whoever's closest to me that seems to sit still and fight back.

I think it still does take time to coordinate pph exchanges with someone specifically due to finding each other on maps after a hunting or filling sesh and so it may even out with those who aren't pre-planning a pph meeting. But still, I do see how that can be looked as a form of cheating. It's no fun for me to do that so that would be my main reason to discourage such an act (at least for myself).

I'm fine with how it is though because thats just how bf and TP has always been. Seems like a really big change imo to make all anonymous names. I feel like if I am able to achieve top 3 pph generally in land tournaments without planning pph partners beforehand, then it doesn't affect tournaments enough to invoke such a change. Either it means not many people do it, or if they do, they're not too great at it... cause I'm still able to keep up with them without planning pph partners. Those r my 2 cents.

[The_Revelation]

I agree with everything above. When I said that knowing how someone plays and using that to ones advantage is an experience thing, I assumed this did not include 3rd party chats.

Any action that requires pre planning, pre chatting or chatting during the tournament is cheating. PERIOD.

I find it respectable the stand that Nachos, sean987 and many others have with not fighting fellow team mates during a tournament, but I do not think it should be a necessity. As long two players did not plan or are not currently chatting - its fair game. That does get sticky when you see shadier players fighting each other though (bluntz, what's his name...ect lol). So setting a good example is not a bad thing.

I guess everything for me boils down to this: As long as your competing to accomplish the best # you can without cheating or any other motives - your good in my books.

[LastSingularity]

That's great to hear! It's very encouraging to know that there are MULTIPLE players who consistently cup playing FAIRLY. It means that it's definitely achievable to win tournaments fairly. And that motivates me to continue to try to cup, playing fairly as well. (Conversely, if all cups were won using outside help, like pre-designated PPH buddies, or equipment kills, or rank kills, I would start to believe it's simply impossible to cup by playing fairly, and then I would lose a lot of interest in playing tournaments)

On the issue of anonymous tanks though, what should I do, given that I want to cup my main tank "Sigma?" I have to play as "Sigma", right? And once I fail to cup on that tank, I have try again next tournament, using the same tank "Sigma." By this point, I have played enough tournaments (20+ at this point) that other frequent tourney participants (yourself included) have gotten to know about my style, my skill level (or lack thereof), and so forth. Some of you might say that is undesirable. But I don't see any other way to cup my main tank except to play repeatedly in tournaments until I cup (and in the process, people will get to know my style / skill level during that dozens and dozens of tries).

Basically, under my ethics system, I agree that:
I should not take free kills, either to rank, or gain equipment
I should not coordinate with buddies over chat or plan in advance whom I will PPH with

But I think being anonymous is too purist, perhaps too ideal of a concept (and quite frankly, I think if I want to cup my main tank, I have to play as that tank repeatedly until I cup, and obviously, in the process, other frequent tourney players will know my style / skill level / etc very well. I see this as unavoidable)

Kirby - sorry for derailing your tournament video thread.
Maybe we can move the most recent few posts into a new thread, such as "tournament ethics?" or something?

[-LanceheaD-]

That's great to hear! It's very encouraging to know that there are MULTIPLE players who consistently cup playing FAIRLY. It means that it's definitely achievable to win tournaments fairly. And that motivates me to continue to try to cup, playing fairly as well. (Conversely, if all cups were won using outside help, like pre-designated PPH buddies, or equipment kills, or rank kills, I would start to believe it's simply impossible to cup by playing fairly, and then I would lose a lot of interest in playing tournaments)

On the issue of anonymous tanks though, what should I do, given that I want to cup my main tank "Sigma?" I have to play as "Sigma", right? And once I fail to cup on that tank, I have try again next tournament, using the same tank "Sigma." By this point, I have played enough tournaments (20+ at this point) that other frequent tourney participants (yourself included) have gotten to know about my style, my skill level (or lack thereof), and so forth. Some of you might say that is undesirable. But I don't see any other way to cup my main tank except to play repeatedly in tournaments until I cup (and in the process, people will get to know my style / skill level during that dozens and dozens of tries).

Basically, under my ethics system, I agree that:
I should not take free kills, either to rank, or gain equipment
I should not coordinate with buddies over chat or plan in advance whom I will PPH with

But I think being anonymous is too purist, perhaps too ideal of a concept (and quite frankly, I think if I want to cup my main tank, I have to play as that tank repeatedly until I cup, and obviously, in the process, other frequent tourney players will know my style / skill level / etc very well. I see this as unavoidable)

Kirby - sorry for derailing your tournament video thread.
Maybe we can move the most recent few posts into a new thread, such as "tournament ethics?" or something?

Tournaments can be won fairly in TP2. Bf was different, but in TP it is definitely achievable. Your points are valid and you are correct in that you just have to play your tank over and over until you cup. Persistence is key, just keep trying. I went on expealladocious's tank and cupped first try gold cause he wanted me to cup it and I agreed (I probably won't do this again though). He was a player that tried to win a cup but could not time after time. I went on, and it didnt seem too much different. Basically if you are a good enough player, you can bet that everything largely just depends on how skilled you are as a player, not some "name".